Asim Iqbal 2nd

10th May, 2011

Salam!

This should be

form QIV (4th form of the quad)

with root tuay miim alif nuun

Mazhar A. Nurani

10th May, 2011

Salam Asim,

The entry seems correct. Form XII, its Verbal noun is اِطْمِينَانٌ. However, the translation does not match the verb and its subject.

Asim Iqbal 2nd

10th May, 2011

Salam,

Do you consider that its root is tuay miim nuun and not tuay miim alif nuun?

I suggest we focus on the verb itself and its weight.

XII form with tuay miim nuun will give tatmaumana

QIV form with tuay miim alif nuun will give tatma'inna as given in the word

Mazhar A. Nurani

10th May, 2011

Kindly see page 1882 of Lane's Lexicon under ToiMeem

Easy to locate entries link

http://www.tyndalearchive.com//TABS/Lane/

Asim Iqbal 2nd

10th May, 2011

Yes checked page 1882, Volume 5, and it has no reference to form XII anywhere, but QIV is mentioned at some places.

Can you give the Surah number and Ayat number where you are most certain that form XII has been used in the Qur'an in any form?

Mazhar A. Nurani

10th May, 2011

It seems that while quoting opinion of some to consider it otherwise, there he mentions IV, which relates to form IV of quadirliterals, and not of trililiterals.

Mazhar A. Nurani

10th May, 2011

For convenience pl cross check Wright Vol 1 page 49 entry 72.

Kais

10th May, 2011

Salam,

Please note that Lane's Lexicon is only one opinion. There are several possible opinions for the root of this word. In general, there are several possible opinions for roots for many words in the Quran. I am happy to leave the triliteral root ṭā mīm nūn (ط م ن) on this page as it is, and not make any changes here. This root is supported by Badawi and Haleem's dictionary of Quranic Usage (the preferred reference for roots for this project).

Mazhar A. Nurani

10th May, 2011

Salam Asim,

لسان العرب مقاييس اللغة الصّحّاح في اللغة القاموس المحيط العباب الزاخر

They all enter it under the Root mentioned above.

http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=مطمئن

Abdul Rahman

10th May, 2011

I agree with Bro. Asim Iqbal. This is not Form XII of the triliteral but, as he says, Form IV of the quadrilteral. IF the root were Ta Mim Nun, Form XII would be iTMauMaNa, yaTMauMinu, and the word here should rightly be "li taTMaumina". The verb here is Form IV of the quadriliteral, the root is Ta Mim hamza Nun

Kais

10th May, 2011

But lisaan al-arab is listing this as ط م ن ? Surely we should trust that reference above others?

Abdul Rahman

11th May, 2011

Correction to my earlier posting: Form XII would be iTMauMaNa yaTMauManu (ie fatha on the penultimate letter of the imperfect verb.)

As to who we should "trust" in this matter, I am not entirely sure since I do not have access to a copy of Lisan al-Arab. But I am absolutely certain that we would not find it listed there as either "Form XII triliteral" or "Form IV quadriliteral" since the numbering and ordering of the various verb forms were started by European grammarians and therefore not known to the classical Arabic scholars of ilm al-Sarf (morphology).

But if asked what would be my choice in the present context, since we are using the European system (using using Roman numerals verb forms) then it is better to rely on Wright's grammar rather than the Lisan al-Arab. Wallahu a'alam.

Kais

11th May, 2011

Thank you kindly for your reply. I think that there are two seperate issues here. The first issue is if the root is triliteral or quadriliteral. Then, the second issue is the specific form of the verb. My understanding is that lisaan al-arab suggests that this word is triliteral, and yes you are totally correct, of course it does not mention any numerical numbering for the verb form. However, I would be interested to know what does Wright's grammar suggest?

Mazhar A. Nurani

11th May, 2011

Salam Abdul Rahman,

You can have access on line to major classical lexicons on this link, with facility of word search

http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=مطمئن

Abdul Rahman

12th May, 2011

Salams everyone,

Wright's Grammar gives this very word as an example of a Form IV quadriliteral verb.

With regard to Lisan al-Arab, this work is cited by Lane in his introduction to his Lexicon as the basis of a more comprehensive glossary called Taj al-Aroos, which is in turn only one of his sources for the Lexicon. Please read the introductory pages to the Lexicon (Vol. 1) carefully. Now Lane's Lexicon lists this word as Form IV quadriliteral. (Q.Q.4). Of course, at the head of the article it is placed under Ta Mim Nun ie three letters.

daawuwd

12th May, 2011

My teachers have said it is rubaa'iy and Hans Wehr ( J M. Cowan) says the same and طمأن as the base letters. the wazn is (if'ilalla yaf'alillu) iTma'anna yatma'innu , its also maziyd fiyh (last radical letter gets doubled in this baab.)

Kais

12th May, 2011

Salamu Alaykum. If you click this link you will see that at present all [13 words] using the root ta mim nun have all been tagged as form XII. It would be very helpful, if someone would volunteer to review [this dictionar page]. I sould also state that this root is the only place where form XII is used. I have two questions. Firstly, should all of those 13 words with the root ta mim nun actually fall under another quad root? My second is, if we do that when no longer have any form XII tagged in the Quran any where. Are we therefore saying that we should drop form XII as a tag altogether from the corpus? Looking forward to hearing anyone's analysis on these 13 words.

Mazhar A. Nurani

12th May, 2011

Kais,

When we write as quad- giving Root طمأن, would the reader be able to cross check and find entry of this four consonant Root is some Lexicon?

The moment we put this word for search, the engines take us to triliteral Root.

Kais

12th May, 2011

Salam. Yes brother, I'm trying to establish if we should tag all thee 13 words currently with root ta mim nun form XII, instead should we tag them all with root طمأن? Another opinion is that this the root is just 3 radicals, but the verb is irregular.

daawuwd

12th May, 2011

kais, i dont think there is any sarf rule that would make this change (if it was irregular), if the 3 base letters were Taa meem and nuwn they would all be SaHiyH and therefore not be subject to ta'liyl, takhfiyf or idghaam. otherwise then there would have had to been a waaw or yaa that changed to hamzah but that is even more problematic.

just my input, at most it could be a mahmuwz but it doesnt belong to any of the mu'allal verbs(not ajwaf,naaqis,mithaal or lafiyf) and its not mudhaa'af.

the takhfiyf for mahmuwz verbs ( verb with a hamzah as a base letter) are few and there would be no rule for this to my knowledge in takhfiyf.

ive found it classified in a few books as the same baab as iqsha'arra yaqsha'irru (to tremble) which is rubaa'iy maziyd fiyh and all the mushtaqqaat are on the same patterns as well.

FS

13th May, 2011

Salaam all, as far as I understand it there seems to be talk of a difference of opinion among the etymologists in reference to this verb. Ibn Mandhur in Lisaan al Arab, as correctly pointed out above, lists it under ط م ن but then goes onto to say that there are others who proposed the origin to be طمأن with the addition of the hamza between the meem and noon. He ends by concluding that it maybe that hamza added to the stem meant the hamza being present in all the subsequent forms of the verb, and that the verb طمن is not used in speech. All the other dictionaries (the classic ones) use the same explanation as Lisaan al Arab, even the same style of listing it like a 3 root verb and then breaking down the details. I am still asking around about this so as soon as I hear anything I will share it here, but it seems that yes it might be a 4 root verb wallahu a'alam.

Asim Iqbal 2nd

2nd June, 2011

1. A brother made a point of using hamza instead of alif.

I prefer Alif as root letter instead of hamza,

Haroof e Muqat'aat contain Alif , e.g. alif laam miim, alif laam ra, alif laam miim suad

Seal of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) contains alif in ALLAH

Old manuscripts contain alif instead of hamza

It is attributed to be opinion of Hazrat Ibn ‘Abbās and Hazrat Ibn Mas’aūd that the letters Alif Laam Miim represent ana Allāhu a'lam (أَنَا اللهُ أعلمُ) and is formed by taking 1st letter alif from the 1st word i.e. ana , middle letter laam from the 2nd word i.e. ALLAH, and last letter miim from the 3rd word i.e. a'lam . The opinion is just quated as a further evidence for alif as a root letter.

2. I think this classical lexicons listing under roots, needs some thought and all words written under the headings should not be treaded as all belonging to the triliteral root as shown in Lane's Lexicon also.

Different lexicons list words under different headings e.g. Lane lists letters in which 2nd and 3rd letter is same under 2 letter root, but when we read the contents under the heading , we find that it also covers 3 letter root.

Similarly Lane lists 4 letter roots under 3 letter root headings, but in the content itself clarifies and lists them as 4 letter roots e.g. he writes tuay miim alif nuun under tuay miim nuun heading but calls tuay miim alif nuun as a quadriliteral root.

If any one has any objection kindly, discuss here, so that after this discussion closes I post the correction at remaining locations where tuay miim alif nuun has been used in the Qur'an.